Villains and Scoundrels

[justine_currie]

Libby Drew wrote recently about villains, and whether or not they have to have a redeeming quality. Here's a related (and timely) article on the subject of villains and how to craft a better one.

From Writers' Digest - 3 Techniques For Crafting a Better Villain:

CREATE A VILLAIN WORTH PURSUING
You can’t just throw all your suspects’ names into a bowl and pick one to be your villain. For your novel to work, the villain must be special.

So ... what do you think makes a good villain?

Comments

[oldenuf2nb.livejournal.com]

You know, to me that's something that's kind of all over the place. I think villains can be anyone from a person with such strong negative impulses that they can't control them and yet knows that they're wrong, to someone virtually without conscience. I think the case has been made for sociopaths who feel no remorse whatsoever. To me, those are actually the scariest villains at all; the ones that you cannot appeal to in any way.

[justine-currie.livejournal.com]

Those are scary villains, for sure. Especially since they can be very charismatic.

[subtlefire.livejournal.com]

A good villain makes you feel.

You can feel sympathetic when you read from their POV and are forced to see them feel and do things that you can relate to - and then feel disturbed that you relate to them at all.

Or you can feel grief, rage, despair when you see things from the POV of someone who has been a victim of something the villain has done, even though the villain never sets "physical" foot on the page.

The villain doesn't even have to be a person, it can be an event. A natural disaster, a train missed, an opportunity passed.

I guess it depends on the type of story. Sorry, this isn't terribly coherent :) There are probably literary terms for what I just said that I know nothing about.

[justine-currie.livejournal.com]

Sorry, this isn't terribly coherent :)

You made perfect sense. And I love your take on the villain's pov, because in many cases there's something driving the villain that most people can relate to (perceived/real injustices, vengeance, protection of loved ones, etc.)

One agent said at a conference that she HATES books written from the villain's pov, and she will toss them aside without even considering them. I found that odd, because I love the idea that you could be getting inside the "bad" person's head.

And yes! Good point about an event being the villain. :)

[justine-currie.livejournal.com]

:)

[stitchesandlace.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting topic. Sometimes the villain can be more important than the protagonist because they can be the ones to get the ball rolling, they make things happen. It's especially tricky when the villain is the main character, because even though you're not meant to like him at first you don't want to turn off your readers.

It's something I've been thinking about lately because I'm writing a story where the main character is the villain in a way. He's not evil, but he's not meant to be a likeable character at first, because of the things he believes in and collaborates with (he's the son of a major Nazi commandant in a WW2 concentration camp and a soldier himself). The story revolves around his best friend's family being arrested for treason and taken away, and a few years later he's working at a concentration camp under his father's command with no questions or qualms about it when he meets his friend again who's just been shipped to said camp, still a prisoner and sans-family. He essentially ends up keeping his friend alive (he's not a Jew, just a political prisoner) and ultimately the favour is returned in the Nuremberg trials. That's like a super basic outline, lol.

It's a difficult character to write because I want him to be a realistic figure of a young adult who grew up in Nazi Germany and has a father in such a high position (this family has had Hitler over for a personal dinner) and as such not only holds but completely believes all of the rhetoric and prejudice. So in that respect he is the villain - he's committing all these horrible acts and seeing into his head isn't necessarily pretty. But besides the relationship that develops between the two men and the trials they face in such awful circumstances, the story is more about his growth as a person, his relationship with his father, and a very slow change of heart per se and the crushing guilt that comes with it.

WW2 stuff can be really touchy and the idea of having a full fledged Nazi as a protagonist could turn a lot of people off or even anger them, because everyone wants to read about the war hero who 'didn't really believe in it to start with', you know? This guy isn't a hero, at all, so I'm really struggling to write him. :/ I guess the real baddie is the father, but even he has redeeming qualities because he's still family.

Wow that was long, sorry hahah. I just felt like talking about that since it's fitting. Let me know if you have any suggestions :P

[justine-currie.livejournal.com]

See, I like stories (done well) from the villain's pov. But be forewarned - an agent at a writers' conference last year mentioned that she won't even consider that type of book. She hates being in the "bad guy's" head. Not a general concensus - in fact, she was the only one who commented on it - but something to consider.

Sounds interesting.

[gabe-speaks.livejournal.com]

I wonder how she would react to a villain who simply doesn't think he's a villain. I mean, most villains (though not all) realize that they are the bad guy in life.

What if that simply wasn't the case?

Or what if the "Hero's Journey" simply took a person down that road that, once they look back, they realize: "Holy shit! I'm the villain!" And by then, it's too late.

I'm toying with this idea.

I mean, imagine Harry Potter saying, after OoTP, "You know, you fuckers--" points to McG and Dumbles "--are no fuckin' better than Voldemort. At least I know he's trying to kill me. You lot would rather I stumble blindly to my death!"

But also, the idea of waking up, doing what you normally do, only to realize that everything thinks you're the bad guy . . .

I've actually been in this situation, at a meeting at work, when I was arguing for something and suggesting things to my boss (who thinks I shit piss diamonds and shits gold) that NO ONE ELSE wanted. And it wasn't until an hour into the meeting when I realized that the others weren't just picking apart my idea in an effort to iron it out, but rather they absolutely did not want my idea to happen and was actively trying to kill it out the gate. That's when I realized that, were it a novel, I'd have been the bad guy.

Anyway . . . enough of that.

There was a Marvel comic book series called Cloak & Dagger. Dagger shot light knives that, when it hit the target, the person basically lived out all of their misdeeds and their 'evilness' was turned onto themselves, thus purifying them, redeeming them.

They fought Dr. Doom. And when she hit him with a light dagger . . . nothing. It wasn't just that he convinced himself we was doing the right thing, he honestly believed that his was a noble cause.

You would have to carefully set up a story like this. You'd have to present information to the reader in a way that would convince us that he is noble, not just in his beliefs but in his actions. Then you'd have to pick the right time for that carefully constructed house of cards to come tumbling down.

I wonder, though, how many readers would resent the mind-fuck? I wonder, too, how much you could hand to the readers as a forewarning without giving too much away?

I dunno . . . just thinking thoughts.

[justine-currie.livejournal.com]

I like your thoughts.

And I've always been intrigued by the villain's journey. I like getting inside the head of the bad guy, and got all sadface when she said that, because I've been mapping out my murder mystery from the villain's pov. Not all of it, and I'm not sold on which point of view (or points of view) I will use. But still ... I've read stories and enjoyed when you get the bad guy's perspective.

AND I bet there are lots of 'bad guys' who think they're doing the right thing. *nods*

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

YES YES YES! I am so glad you have posted this. It's something that I find myself ranting about at times: villains need to be logical, acting for their own purpose, and proportional to the hero!

The number of bad fantasy novels I read as a girl where the hero was a mild mannered peasant and the villain the Super All Powerful Being whose only goal in life was to defeat the mild mannered peasant ... oh dear ...

That's why Lord of the Rings works, because the villain is a Super Being, and the first hero is hopelessly out of scale, so they put the Fellowship together and something approaching the right balance is created. Similarly, in Harry Potter, he faces Voldemort as a horcrux twice when he is a young boy, but is spared from trying to fight him directly until book four, when he has a bit more experience under his belt: the villain grows in proportion to the hero there.

I can't actually think of anything redeeming about Sauron or Voldemort, but those are both classic hero's journeys, so that probably works best for that genre. For most other novels, though, the villains are best when they have at least a good enjoyment of their villainry (Aunt Ada in Cold Comfort Farm is the best example I can think of) or an internally consistent logic to their actions, like Professor Moriarty (he just wants everything).

And then, of course, the villain who is only a villain because he thwarts the hero/ine is also a fascinating device, because he makes you question the narrative voice and see if it is really speaking about fairness and truth, or about selfishness and pettiness. Alexei Karenin and Les Miserable's Javert are two good examples of these, they stand in place of the novel's real villains: selfishness and poverty respectively.

And it's 2pm and I've not had breakfast, so I appear to be rambling, but in short (ha!): books need villains that are proportional to the story and the hero, they should have their own agency and desires, and they should exist wholly independently of the hero, regardless of how much they are subsequently affected by him or her. Unless, of course, you're writing a comedy, in which case have the gnat attack the brontosaurus!

[justine-currie.livejournal.com]

Exactly! Heroes need to build up and/or team up to take on super villains to make the story work. And villains that are pesky little things are so boring. They need to be smart enough to pull of something that doesn't get them caught in the first chapter.

Something (somewhat related, if you squint) that drives me mad is the whole bumbling law enforcement official(s) to escape building a more believable villain (and/or protagonist). Sure there may be some incompetant officers (as in any profession), and it can work in something comedic, but when someone steps in and takes over - without training - where the police should have been able to, it simply doesn't work for me. Like noticing little details about crime scenes when they happen to be there - or stick their noses in - that (*sigh* of course) the police missed. Characters who have training and resources the police don't? That's fine. But the local town busybody? Not so much.

Ooh. /rant. That went on a bit, didn't it? ;D

[gabe-speaks.livejournal.com]

Exactly! Heroes need to build up and/or team up to take on super villains to make the story work. And villains that are pesky little things are so boring. They need to be smart enough to pull of something that doesn't get them caught in the first chapter.

This is why the two-tier villain style of HP worked, I think, because Draco was that pesky villain which seemed so important for a minute, until the real villain shows up. And even Draco was used, basically, to keep things in perspective.

[justine-currie.livejournal.com]

Hee! He was that thorn in Harry's side, while the real villain loomed large. :)

And yeah ... the VAST difference between schoolboy pranks and true evil.

[gabe-speaks.livejournal.com]

Bullies, Bastards And Bitches: How To Write The Bad Guys Of Fiction by Jessica Morrell is another excellent book about . . . well, bullies, bastards, and bitches.

;-)

[justine-currie.livejournal.com]

I've heard of it and tried to get it from the local library, but they don't have it. D: I hate buying books if I don't know how good they are first.

Now I can add it to my wish list. :)